Jonathan, thanks for sharing the tales of U-2 and 101 experiences. Makes moi recall the fun we had in the Mirage late 60s in exercises out of Darwin where the Vulcans contributed to the opposition forces. First up to the pressure suit set-up. Between 50 and 55 grand we wore a partial pressure suit, ie, vest, however, in my time it was merely an exercise since didn't usually operate at such lofty heights. In the air to air role the beloved Mirage carried an all hemisphere missile, the Matra (in practice not very reliable), two Sidewinders and, of course, the real weapon, two 30mm cannon. As you recounted, a head on snap-up with the Matra was sort of OK but a 90 beam provided a better opportunity to check the target out. As I recall (memory she is becoming an unreliable commodity) the Vulcan had the capacity to break one's radar lock as well as punch out chaff. With such a big target on the scope one could detect the 'puffs' of chaff (wasn't instant blooming) and the radar lock manipulation was also detectable so it was a good game. Indeed, it was my first exposure to the EW aspects of our trade. As to turning, heck the Vulcan could do that well. It looked like a large flying speed brake but that mongrel sure could rotate! Funny, I do remember the first time I did a guns pass, vividly! Being used to tactics agin Sabres and Mirages, both of which are little aeroplanes, to close to about 4-500 yards (Mirage gunsight was in hectametres (sp?)) on a flaming great plank like the Vulcan seemed frighteningly close! All good fun. Pete, who had much more experience than I, particularly with the later more capable missiles, might like to throw in a comment or three. Pete, another question; in the early days of Mirage introduction, what sort of a suit would eg Col Ackland have worn? The Mirage was designed, with the help of an internal rocket motor (in the RAAF design changes it was replaced with a fuel tank), to play around at the 70,000 mark. However, there were one or two tricky incidents during our trials and I think that was the end of story, simply because, in our area, there were no known targets in those upper regions.

Jim, I read your burst re the political wickedness which surrounds us, with a 'not surprised' sadness. This global warming (note, 'tis now seldom referred to as that - rather it's now 'climate change'- Hmm) conspiracy has been and remains as a money driven deal; nothing else. Should 'carbon trading' be introduced, since it would be completely open to bureaucratic manipulation and abuse, it would lay the foundation for the next financial collapse, since, as with the stoopid past where equity before borrowing was given the flick, somewhere along the line someone, ie, ye and me, would have to pay for the sins of others in real money. Incidentally, as a farmer I believe that carbon is and will remain good essential stuff and it's an insult to brand it as bad. Enough from me. Praise the Lord and press on, have fun and cheers to the team, Ken Semmler Issue28/Rash38

Re: RAF Vulcans etc - non FAC
Posted by: "Peter Condon" petercondon@icunet.com.au peter.condon
Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:41 am (PDT)

Ken,

Ahhhh, those were the days.

My first experience against a Vulcan in an exercise was in an Avon powered F-86 fitted with only a gunsight-ranging radar and two ancient Sidewinder missiles (AIM-9B). We had to be in the target's six-o'clock, and pointing at the target, for a successful shot. In other words, sneak up on him undetected if you could. The Vulcan was at about 48,000 feet. I was on a 90-degree beam intercept at about 40,000 feet and I could see him conning from about 20 miles or more. Just as I was about to start climbing at about ten miles, remember, not much zoom potential in an F-86 at that altitude, he started his turn towards me. I tried to tangle with him but could not get anywhere near to his six-o'clock position and eventually fell out of the sky to run away about 25 miles to gather some speed and try again. Same result.

My next attempt at getting a Vulcan was in a Mirage III which was fitted with radar and a Matra R530 and two steam-driven sidewinders (same as fitted to the Sabre - we must have had plenty). As Ken mentioned, the bloke in the Vulcan controlling the ECM could do all sorts of fancy things to my radar screen and I have to admit that I didn't have a bloody clue what was going on. Instead of one blip there were about ten blips moving all over the place. I solved that one by turning all emitters off and visually firing an ancient Sidewinder at him on the second intercept. On the first intercept he just played with my like in the F-86 experience. There was no way I could turn with him. In short, two fighters coordinating together were needed to get a kill. I would not count on too much success with the radar missile against a jamming Vulcan as we had no experience against such targets.

Ken, we kept the Matra R530 until the Mirage was replaced with the F-18 Hornet, starting in 1985. The Sidewinders were replaced with Matra Magic infra-red heat-seeking missiles in about 1983 - only three years before the Mirages were retired. They were very capable heat seeking missiles. Close range and reasonably high angle-off.

The max altitude of the Mirage was 75,000 feet. We could fly at 48,000 feet without any suit protection. Up to 55,000 feet with a pressure waist coat, and up to 80,000 with a high altitude suit. The RAAF did not have the rocket motor so 75,000 feet was the limit - where idle RPM equalled max RPM. The RAAF only bought a few full pressure suits, and I believe Col Ackland was wearing one when he had a bit of a hypoxia problem and ended up descending very very very fast. I think the suits belonged to the Institute of Aviation Medicine.

That's enough reminiscing for now.

Peter Condon
petercondon@icunet.com.au
Tamale 15, Sidewinder 23, 1969.